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The Nova Effect
The Tragedy of Good Luck
Posted 5 years ago by cete in category: misc
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(guest) - 5 years ago [ Reply ]
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Do people still believe in free will? If so, why?

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Noemoc - 5 years ago
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  Yes. Because I have to.  
(guest) - 5 years ago
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  @Noemoc :-) Of course who believes in free will has no choice but to believe in it, but I'm curious what's the "reasoning" behind it: I can totally see why we have the illusion of free will, but if you analyze things on a deeper level, that illusion dissipates pretty quickly. I mean... it's not like we choose where we are born, in which time, who our parents are (hence also our genes) or if we're born at all. I can't see a lot of choice...  
Noemoc - 5 years ago
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  I think it is because (1) it really, really feels like we have free will, (2) many (most?) people are horrified by determinism because they think it means the absence of both responsibility and freedom (which it doesn’t) and (3) figuring out how determinism is compatible with the things we really value from the idea of “free will” is too much work. And, finally, just because we cannot presently see where free will would “reside” or how it could be something that is neither stochastic nor determined does not mean that we won’t discover an unexpected solution to this seemingly unsolvable problem in the future. So some people are just holding out hope. :) 
(guest) - 5 years ago
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  I can't understand why people are so afraid of the reality of things... Determinism doesn't really change anything: it's just how things are. What we value about "free will" was actually brought us by a deterministic Universe. I actually think that embracing it would only be beneficial: it could let people "forgive" (there's really nothing to forgive: no one actually chooses anything) themselves and others a lot more easily. I think that a lot of our suffering derives from unrealistic expectations that are obviously never met in reality. While it's often useful to analyze things in retrospective ("I could have done that...", "if only...", etc.), if you do it without accepting the fact that we have no control over how things go, you'll likely create yourself more sorrow. 
DaveJoyce - 5 years ago
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  I don't agree that determinism makes it easier to forgive people. All humans have a righteous anger when they see wrongdoing from others. I remember an episode of Law and Order where one of the prosecutors (a main character) was kidnapped, raped, and chopped into pieces and put into the trunk of a car. I know it's just fiction, but the anger I felt as a viewer and desire for justice was right. Justice would be for the murderer to be executed for his crime. Determinism doesn't have any notion of justice. If there's no justice, there can be no forgiveness. We can only truly forgive each other when we realize the huge debt that we owe for our own lives. Those who have been forgiven much, love much. Those who have been forgiven little, love little. (Luke 7:47). So those who have accepted the forgiveness of sins by Christ who died on the cross for our sins can extend the forgiveness they've received from Him to others. If you're conscious of your own sin and how much you need forgiveness — and have been forgiven — it's much easier to forgive others, even the most brutal and heinous of people. I don't see that same dynamic in determinism. 
(guest) - 5 years ago
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  Well, it's true that with determinism there's no forgiveness, but that's because there's really nothing to forgive: no one actually chooses anything. If people really had a choice, everyone would choose to be happy, rich and loved: no one would choose to be a thief or a murderer and to be hated by everyone. How does one become a murderer? It's not like you choose to be born with a brain unable to properly feel empathy. We as humans naturally feel empathy (well, most of us), and therefore condemn things like rape and murder which, unfortunately, are just as natural. We, as a species, are trying to cooperate so that life is easier for everyone: unfortunately we still have a lot of work to do, but maybe one day we will succeed on eradicating most of our sorrows. Maybe, by eradicating the social unfairness that greatly contributes to spark these problems, one day there will be virtually no more murderers, rapists and thieves. To me the whole concept of "justice" is flawed because it's based on false premises. To me when we trial and incarcerate a murderer, it's not about justice, but it's about protecting others from a violent individual who is troubled and disturbed. Most of the time, unfortunately, there's nothing you can do to rehabilitate such individuals, but we should at least try. Imprisonment really shouldn't be about punishing someone, it should instead focus on rehabilitation. Of course we feel anger when we see wrongdoings, it's a natural reaction, but instead of focusing on the disturbed individual who committed the act, we should focus on trying and fix the problems of our society so that such things are a lot less likely to occur. 
DaveJoyce - 5 years ago
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  I don't think you can address those problems on a societal level. Any true reformation has to occur at an individual level first, which then extends out to society. How is a view of determinism helpful for individuals suffering with sorrow? Determinism would have us believe that we're just chemical organisms doing our thing and if we're suffering depression there must be some sort of chemical imbalance. So we correct it with drugs that simply *numb* us to the world. How many mass shooters were on some sort of emotion numbing drugs? Human beings aren't machines. Any one of us could become a murderer if we just let ourselves do whatever we feel like doing. Seems like a hopeless and aimless way of living life. 

DaveJoyce - 5 years ago [ Reply ]
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What kind of a stupid ending was that?! I'm all for a conversation on free will and determinism, but how on Earth is that conversation sparked by a video that doesn't even remotely, avee a proper ending?

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(guest) - 5 years ago
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  How? Cannabis, obviously. And yeah, the video is not that interesting and has a stupid ending, but... Marijuana! 
DaveJoyce - 5 years ago
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  LOL 

Dest (guest) - 5 years ago [ Reply ]
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Sounds very similar to the story of the Chinese farmer

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